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Ceanthar Cerbera Minmatar Lone Gunmen Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.01.12 16:47:00 - [1] Edited by: Ceanthar Cerbera on 12/01/2007 16:46:30 How is it that this well practised policy of NBSI came to be? Theres long since been a very much unstable and hostile reality being in 0.0 and much of it due to one policy enactded - (If) Not Blue Shoot It. In all sence it means if you havent talked to me before and made friends with me I will shoot you on site. No matter who you are, what ever your intentions may be, youre going to get shot. Is it something that you who resides in 0.0 really want? There seem to be little will in building something greater than that. Some have tried there was this one region called Blue Space where anyone with friendly intentions could come and mine, belt hunt etc. But others could not stand for it had to destroy it and now its gone. Other examples are ISS that let anyone use their stations and travel into their territory. They also have lots of trouble with other alliances, pirates if you like who just dont stand for it, wishing to destroy just because they can. NBSI ftw. Me for one do not go by NBSI those times im in 0.0. I find it childish and stupid and against all principles I stand for as a human being. Just like the wild west there are those who like to live in peace and stand up against those who dwell on the darjker sides of humanity. But why arent there any wild bill hickock and wyatt earp in EVE? If id have to guess NBSI came to be out of fear and lazyness. Its easy to just say "Ok shoot all you see and youll be safe". There is no thought involved, no higher purpose. Just pure self preservation without humanity. Eve is what WE make of it. Do we really want a dark place where higher values like charity and compassion are worthless? Its just my humble thought and question - why NBSI? ----------------------------------------- For the liberation and safety of the Matari people!
Ceanthar Cerbera Minmatar Lone Gunmen Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.01.12 17:08:00 - [2] Originally by: Dark Shikari Heard of CFS? They proved to EVE that a non-NBSI policy does not work for a large territory-holding alliance. Well I havent heard of them but I have thought about this. It seem to me that the only case in wich you need NBSI is if you got a much bigger area of space "claimed" than you can patrol actively. Face it most big alliances have so much wich they cant possible control constantly so they need a very agressive policy to be able to lay claim to so much space. But isnt there something quite bizarre and megalomanic about having more systems than you can keep track of? ----------------------------------------- For the liberation and safety of the Matari people!
Ceanthar Cerbera Minmatar Lone Gunmen Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.01.12 17:12:00 - [3] Originally by: Alexi Borizkova NBSI is just a way of life after a while. When you see a group of strangers outnumbering you, you run, when you see strangers you equal or outnumber, you engage. there are two types of animals in eve, I have come to see. Those that relish in the kill, and those that are killed. For the former, NBSI is the best thing EVER, and more often than not, new blues are a discouragement that hampers their lifestyle. For the latter... really,that's what empire is for. NBSI isn't a standard war dec you know, there are self places to go. What you really have to ask yourself is this: what can I offer you above the shattered remains of my ship and thrill of killing me to make you not do so. Come up with a good enough answer, and you might end up blue with some of the NBSI groups. Remember, when you enterthe territory of others, you're either passing through or sticking around as competition, and frankly, why should the entities that fight and die for their space let you enter it without paying the same toll of blood and tears they did. I realize this also. But what happened to asking and telling? Its simple "hey we live here and dont want you here. leave now and youll live". The shoot first ask later is cowardice. Especially when you have established your precense in a region and is superior. ----------------------------------------- For the liberation and safety of the Matari people!
Ceanthar Cerbera Minmatar Lone Gunmen Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.01.12 17:18:00 - [4] Originally by: Beef Hardslab The problem with not running NBSI is it is too easy for your enemies to exploit the fact that you do not annhilate unknowns. Need intel? Make a fresh alt and fly in, no worries. As the game works now, a covops alt with no standings can sit in your system, all day every day, and there isn't a whole lot you can do about it. This makes doing anything a security risk, as intel can constantly be fed to those who desire it. What's the fix to this? I don't know, but running NBSI is the one way alliances can at least attempt to prevent this scenario. My suggestion would be to give more power to sovereignty, perhaps something that can locate someone in a system, cloaked or not, if you have sovereignty - but make it take a while and cost something. Doubt it will ever happen, of course, but it'd be nice if there were SOME way alliances could better secure their sovereign space. Hopefully with Kali 2 and the deployable gate sentrys, but we all know sentries aren't that hard to get around. Yes I agree. But Blue Space could do it. WHY? They only laid claim on a select few systems. If you dont have the manpower to patrol 300 systems why should to claim to own them? Youre hardly using them anyway. It would seem to me that NBSI work in everyones disadvantage in the end. Do upon others what you would have them do to you, seem familiar? What goes around comes around is more used but has the same meaning. NBSI is what makes 0.0 so hostile in the end. In produces paranoia and alienation. ----------------------------------------- For the liberation and safety of the Matari people!
Ceanthar Cerbera Minmatar Lone Gunmen Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.01.12 17:32:00 - [5] Yeah some how I cant buy this NBSI is the only way talk. It worked in reality why cant it work in EVE? People cant be trying. But im sure it would look quite differently if people did it some other way. You cant lay claim to so much space as BoB for instance unsless you invoce such agressive methods. Its the only way you can claim more space than you can actively patrol. But if you dont have the men to patrol the area you have more resources than you can make use of anyway. Gluttony. And for having neutrals swarm in.. Blue Space could handle it. They said "OK these systems are ours, saty out!" And people did! So they took the best areas for them selfs and made the rest up for grabs. ----------------------------------------- For the liberation and safety of the Matari people!
Ceanthar Cerbera Minmatar Lone Gunmen Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.01.12 17:35:00 - [6] Originally by: Xelios Quote: I realize this also. But what happened to asking and telling? Its simple "hey we live here and dont want you here. leave now and youll live". The shoot first ask later is cowardice. Especially when you have established your precense in a region and is superior. And if he just ignores you and continues on into your space? Then you've let go the chance to destroy him, and now for the next x hours/days you have to constantly answer questions about him in alliance chat. "Should I kill Jim Noob?" 1 minute passes "Yes he's an enemy scout" "Oh too late he already left". "Hey what about this guy is he supposed to be here?" "I dunno... anyone know him?" 5 minutes pass "Oh well he's gone anyway" 10 minutes later... "OMG Jim Noob just blew up 3 cans full of ore I've been mining" and so on. It takes 1 person to disrupt mining operations in an entire region. 1 person picking off haulers who are travelling through YOUR space, space that's supposed to be safe for your alliance. Dispite what you might think it doesn't matter how many people you have to defend your space, catching 1 person who doesn't want to be caught is HARD. Now imagine you let dozens of them into your space, just so a few actual noobs can do some sightseeing or mine a little ark. That's why alliances have NBSI policies, and that's why CFS failed. Yes you always have griefers but how is this different from low sec space? Yet in low sec people arent envoking NBSI. In some areas people have gone together to hunt down wrongdoers and keep space safe. But as soon as you hit 0.0 its like everyone goes crazy. why is that? ----------------------------------------- For the liberation and safety of the Matari people!
Ceanthar Cerbera Minmatar Lone Gunmen Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.01.12 17:45:00 - [7] Originally by: Culmen Its really simple really From a quick glance in local it is impossible to tell if those 5 neutrals are A) 4 hulks and a Hauler or B)4 Sniper-pests and a dictor now try piloting a hauler full of high ends through a region, with 5 neutrals in evrey other system with this kind of uncertainty, you'll eighter take a heck of a long time figuring out which is which or loose a hauler so Without NBSI "Is jim neutral here a good neutral or a bad neutral?" "dunno" "warping" (sound of a hauler getting shot by 2 dozen 1400mm) With NBSI "OMFG NEUTRALS! NBSI!" (sound of combatships being rigged up) (sound of security) Yes but there are ways around this. Its what we all do when hauling or what ever. Convoy. I live in low sec, pirates are my everyday reality yet I dont go around all paraoind shooting first asking later. I recon, move in groups, stay smart. Friends with most, shooting those who want me harm. ----------------------------------------- For the liberation and safety of the Matari people!
Ceanthar Cerbera Minmatar Lone Gunmen Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.01.12 17:52:00 - [8] Originally by: Beef Hardslab Originally by: Ceanthar Cerber I realize this also. But what happened to asking and telling? Its simple "hey we live here and dont want you here. leave now and youll live". The shoot first ask later is cowardice. Especially when you have established your precense in a region and is superior. Who says everyone is like this? Unless I am pretty sure the neutral in local is an alt spy or otherwise up to no good, I always warn them in local before engaging, and you know what? Most of the time, that's all it takes. well good. and no Im not saying everyone is like that. In fact I very much believe there are alot of people who arent. But not many seem to have the stamina to follow their beliefs trough. What is it they say, great evil is not made possible by the few who perform it, but by the silence of those who dont. But why are so few willing to try? We all play eve for the challenge, then why do people shy from the biggest one? There must be more courge in this game than that surely? ----------------------------------------- For the liberation and safety of the Matari people!
Ceanthar Cerbera Minmatar Lone Gunmen Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.01.12 18:07:00 - [9] Originally by: Xelios Edited by: Xelios on 12/01/2007 17:59:33 What's the point of owning space if you need an escort fleet every time you want to move a hauler around in it? whats the point of owning a car when someone might steal it tonight? I live in a quite safe town but I can never be sure I wont be robbed or worse. Still that dont make me runa around treating everyone with suspicion. ----------------------------------------- For the liberation and safety of the Matari people!
Ceanthar Cerbera Minmatar Lone Gunmen Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.01.12 18:12:00 - [10] Originally by: Alan Tappan I belonged to a alliance down south with my old character. I had a few times where someone would come into our space and immediatly contact one of use to let us know what they are doing. Its all part of the way things run out there. If you know your in someone elses space and you see them in local. Send a convo or shout in local and let them know what your doing. If you dont then it only makes sense that your considered hostile. Hell I had a guy show up at one of our outpost, sit outside, and convo me asking politely for access to the outpost and gave me his references. It seems to me like a good policy, especially for large alliances. yes but this require them to not shoot you at first sight. and many do that. theres no time to tell your buisness, and even so they arent interested. thats my experience in most cases and the experience of a lot of others. ----------------------------------------- For the liberation and safety of the Matari people!
Ceanthar Cerbera Minmatar Lone Gunmen Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.01.12 18:13:00 - [11] Originally by: Able Citizen Originally by: Ceanthar Cerbera Edited by: Ceanthar Cerbera on 12/01/2007 16:46:30 How is it that this well practised policy of NBSI came to be? snip If id have to guess NBSI came to be out of fear and lazyness. Its easy to just say "Ok shoot all you see and youll be safe". There is no thought involved, no higher purpose. Just pure self preservation without humanity. You said a mouthful, my brother. There is no fully successful policy for maintaining a large, territorialist alliance. Until we, as a species, are able to transcend the fear and paranoia that pervades the cluster, NBSI will be common practice. Those of us that eschew this mindset endeavor to change minds one at a time. I applaud your evolved thinking. well thank you. I may come forth as an idealist but everyone here knows what Im saying is right. ----------------------------------------- For the liberation and safety of the Matari people!
Ceanthar Cerbera Minmatar Lone Gunmen Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.01.12 18:22:00 - [12] Originally by: Ozzie Asrail Originally by: Ceanthar Cerbera Originally by: Sean Dillon [<snip> <snip> so youre back at "because I can". Once you boil down to it, that is the reason for NBSI. If I can I will shoot anyone I like. Now isnt that a bit low? And is that the world we want to be living in? It's a game. It's really not much more complicated than that. When you play a game of football do you refuse to tackle or score and jsut decide to pass the ball around in fair equal timed sessions to amke sure noone feels sad? yes that is a point of view. I know many see EVE as a game. Others see it as a project, an alternative reality. Eve dont have any set rules, we all make the rules up just like real life. So why should I abide by your laws if I feel they are wrong? The Geneva convention came to be out of fear that someone would do harm to you. No one likes that and so we all agreed that lets not do it to each others. Now we still dont live in such a world. Some even claim to live by the convention and still break it but Id like to think were all trying to get there. Why? Because deep down in ourself we feel that that is the only way we can be safe. ----------------------------------------- For the liberation and safety of the Matari people!
Ceanthar Cerbera Minmatar Lone Gunmen Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.01.12 18:25:00 - [13] Originally by: DubanFP Originally by: Kovid Mine asteroids Kill NPCs Missions Use agents Do a complex Passing through to another area. Deliver goods to a member of your alliance the first 5 are wasting YOUR alliance's resources anyways, so why would you even want that? Look truth is we have our own problems, and since we dont really care if we shoot you or not we're better off just shooting you. You could be a threat and there's no reason not to shoot you. It's a game, you entered 0.0 knowing you could get shot, what's the problem? Sure but what about the 80% of space you claim that you dont mine or rat actively? You can only use so much resources. Also they are infinite so how I can I be using them up? ----------------------------------------- For the liberation and safety of the Matari people!
Ceanthar Cerbera Minmatar Lone Gunmen Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.01.12 19:55:00 - [14] Originally by: Malicia Skirj Let's look at this another way. A more realistic way. Two arbitrary countries...let's say a very small pack of US warplanes suddenly enters Russian airspace...what do you think is going to happen to those planes? And this is in reality with real consequences, so it should be perfectly understandable that unknown people in an area held by another group are going to be shot down first and interrogated later. If you think that's an unreasonable example, feel free to look up some info on Gary Powers. Well this is not realistic. Because thats not what happens. What happens is they get escorted out, diplomacy arises and the incident is resolved. Either in peace with apologies or with agression if the US dont back down. If real life applied NBSI the cold war would have led to a world war. It didnt happen. ----------------------------------------- For the liberation and safety of the Matari people!
Ceanthar Cerbera Minmatar Lone Gunmen Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.01.12 20:15:00 - [15] Originally by: Xelios But as for the car analogy, if stealing that care wasn't against the law and the only person standing between the theif and a free $10,000 automobile was you, maybe you'd feel a little differently when you see people looking into the windows? In 0.0 anything goes, you have to assume the worst because more often than not that's exactly what you get. That's what makes it different from empire in the first place. No I wouldnt take your car even if that was the case. And In the wild west that wasnt the case for many people either. For some yes but not for most people. Why do we have the laws we have? If it werent any reason behind them they wouldnt exist. Nothing just happens. ----------------------------------------- For the liberation and safety of the Matari people!
Ceanthar Cerbera Minmatar Lone Gunmen Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.01.12 20:24:00 - [16] Edited by: Ceanthar Cerbera on 12/01/2007 20:21:24 Originally by: Venkhar Krard Oh please.. Its only a game.. dont compare it to real life. Please dont speak about kindness or humanity.. we dont kill you in RL when we destroy your ship.. Its A GAME. If you want to make utopia out of 0.0, claim some land and try it. Oh and dont call people "childish and stupid" only beacause they play the game other way than you.. so I have to accept your style of playing when you dont accept mine? Circular argument my friend ;) edit: but no I realize that people play it differently. just like.. oh yes real life! ----------------------------------------- For the liberation and safety of the Matari people!
Ceanthar Cerbera Minmatar Lone Gunmen Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.01.12 20:28:00 - [17] Originally by: Malicia Skirj Originally by: Ceanthar Cerbera Originally by: Malicia Skirj Well this is not realistic. Because thats not what happens. What happens is they get escorted out, diplomacy arises and the incident is resolved. Either in peace with apologies or with agression if the US dont back down. If real life applied NBSI the cold war would have led to a world war. It didnt happen. Evidentally, you didn't read that bit at the bottom. Not only is it realistic, it's proven itself. Powers wasn't escorted out. He was shot down. Real life applied NBSI...and you're right...it nearly lead to a war and lead us to the cuban missile crisis, which also nearly lead to war. But not quite. Another incident of NBSI in reality would be the USS Vincennes shooting down that Iranian airbus in 1988. They didn't ask or crank up the diplomacy. They said, "Hey...could be an enemy. Kill it." Now let's take a look at non-NBSI in reality. When the two flights that were flown into the WTC left their designated flight paths, they were asked why. When they didn't respond and continued along with their new flight plan, they should have been shot down. As it was, when they finally decided to get some jets in the air, the passenger planes' transponders had been shut off making them harder to find. We already know the results of that non-NBSI action. So. Three examples of reality. Two NBSI actions that nearly led to war. Nearly. And one non that did actually lead to war, just because people hesitated when they were unsure of the intentions of the people piloting those aircraft. Let's look at this another way. A more realistic way. Two arbitrary countries...let's say a very small pack of US warplanes suddenly enters Russian airspace...what do you think is going to happen to those planes? And this is in reality with real consequences, so it should be perfectly understandable that unknown people in an area held by another group are going to be shot down first and interrogated later. If you think that's an unreasonable example, feel free to look up some info on Gary Powers. why is it that people always use exceptions as examples on how something doesnt work. the world as a whole arent in chaos like 0.0 how is that possible if the NBSI logic is what drives us? ----------------------------------------- For the liberation and safety of the Matari people!
Ceanthar Cerbera Minmatar Lone Gunmen Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.01.12 20:42:00 - [18] Originally by: Malicia Skirj Originally by: Ceanthar Cerbera Edited by: Ceanthar Cerbera on 12/01/2007 20:21:24 Originally by: Venkhar Krard Oh please.. Its only a game.. dont compare it to real life. Please dont speak about kindness or humanity.. we dont kill you in RL when we destroy your ship.. Its A GAME. If you want to make utopia out of 0.0, claim some land and try it. Oh and dont call people "childish and stupid" only beacause they play the game other way than you.. so I have to accept your style of playing when you dont accept mine? Circular argument my friend ;) edit: but no I realize that people play it differently. just like.. oh yes real life! He never said yours was rejected. Simply that it's just a game. In fact, in his second to last line he's welcoming you to try your style of play. And yes, when you go into another country, you have to accept their laws just as they have to accept yours (if you're strong enough to enforce them) or concord's when they're in your 'country'. yes but for most countrys in real life and systems with concord you dont go in suspecting everyone wants you harm and will shoot you on sight. Well actually there is one place they do that and its a small island with "natives" (people that have had no contact with modern man) where they attack anyone on sight. There even was an incident where survivors from an helicopter crash was killed when the reached the island. But its an extreme example for sure =) Still we hail from those people and have made sure to establish UN and Geneva and such. How is that if theres no will for "non-NBSI"? ----------------------------------------- For the liberation and safety of the Matari people!
Ceanthar Cerbera Minmatar Lone Gunmen Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.01.12 20:44:00 - [19] This turned out a quite interesting thread. Shows theres quite a few who recognize this as being a bit faulty, or so it would seem to me. ----------------------------------------- For the liberation and safety of the Matari people!
Ceanthar Cerbera Minmatar Lone Gunmen Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.01.14 09:29:00 - [20] Originally by: Tarkan Kador I think NBSI is going to be bad for 0.0 in the long run, because the developers will simply redirect development away from alliances/sovereignety/0.0. Its already starting to happen with things like factional warfare, the focus away from big fleets, and the corporation tourneys. Why would they redirect the focus away from alliances/sovereignety/0.0? You serve more subscribers that way. well I think youre wrong there. they are talking about ways to reinforce your sov even more. Sentries, ability to lock gates etc. And I believe the ability to form a working "infrastructure" is whats lacking in 0.0. You take over a system and it says its your sov but you still cant police or control it in any way other way than warp bubbles and posting ships at gates all the time. And even so your options are limited to shooting people down or try and escort them out. Im not finding it surprising most choose the former since its so much easier. Still Im not one for taking the easy way out especially when it goes against principles id like to hold on to. But I most point out that most people recognices ownership of systems. In those 0.0 Ive been most people adhere to "laws" put down and follow them. What can they do for you you ask. Well for starters they can help to police your systems. Blue Space had a chat channel for information both ways. "Everyone dock we need to lock system down" or "hey theres a mrhyde here who stole my ore". And for the rest.. well I believe ISS take a fee for docking at their stations. You get minerals if people refine ore in your station. Im sure if you think about it youll find lots of other possible ways for people to contribute if you open up a little to them. ----------------------------------------- For the liberation and safety of the Matari people!
Ceanthar Cerbera Minmatar Lone Gunmen Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.01.14 22:15:00 - [21] Edited by: Ceanthar Cerbera on 14/01/2007 22:12:40 Originally by: Kagura Nikon One option i think would be. When you have sovereign of a system you may set the gate entrace for the following. The neutral incomming may choose to pay X ammount of isk to be "blue" for N hours. That would make things interesting sicne would generate income to the owners and the ones that needed to travel trough the system would have a chance, expensive but a chance. Even better if different levels were used. So in certain systems you needed to pay 1 million to enter. While in others 10 million... yeah very similar to road toll thats being used quite frequently in rl. edit: but you can see how it would amount to huge troubles once every 0.0 gate have been set to 100m by some alliance.. ----------------------------------------- For the liberation and safety of the Matari people!
Ceanthar Cerbera Minmatar Lone Gunmen Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.01.15 14:58:00 - [22] Originally by: Rod Blaine Originally by: Ceanthar Cerbera Edited by: Ceanthar Cerbera on 14/01/2007 22:12:40 Originally by: Kagura Nikon One option i think would be. When you have sovereign of a system you may set the gate entrace for the following. The neutral incomming may choose to pay X ammount of isk to be "blue" for N hours. That would make things interesting sicne would generate income to the owners and the ones that needed to travel trough the system would have a chance, expensive but a chance. Even better if different levels were used. So in certain systems you needed to pay 1 million to enter. While in others 10 million... yeah very similar to road toll thats being used quite frequently in rl. edit: but you can see how it would amount to huge troubles once every 0.0 gate have been set to 100m by some alliance.. No need, you onl;y need the chokepoints. This is why nothing likethis will ever happen btw. Anchorable gateguns, maybe, but I bet CCP is still very much in doubt on those purely because of this chokepoint problem. but still its a contraproductive solution if one wants more open and free 0.0. Now i guess not all are interested in just that but me for one likes to see 0.0 open and free. This is why i try and hunt pirates with resolve for the principle reason of keeping low sec space safe for those who cant or will not fight. Were I to form an 0.0 empire I would strive for the same thing. And here is the turrets and other features helpful. Not for keeping people from coming in, but to keep the wrong people out so those who wants can enjoy those things that 0.0 can offer. And sure I may be an idealist but I do believe the socialistic way of life is a better one for everyone in the long run. ----------------------------------------- For the liberation and safety of the Matari people!
Ceanthar Cerbera Minmatar Lone Gunmen Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.01.17 12:58:00 - [23] Edited by: Ceanthar Cerbera on 17/01/2007 12:57:39 Originally by: Limitless I still don't understand the advantage of not running an NBSI policy. What benefit do alliances gain for running it? Other than to feel good about being more "civilized". If there were a great benefit to doing it, it would already be done. There isn't, so they don't. QED. well youre touching the real question there.. It all comes down to the definition of it all. I would find it a big achievement to be able to set up an control a piece of 0.0. Keep it safe from wrongdoers and open for those that keep in line. To accomplish that is worth more than all the minerals, iskies and eve items together. Lets face it this is a game and all you get is numbers presented on a screen. Its not real so what worth is there in having yet another bs? And in this thread is trolling then lets remove half the forum shall we? =) edit: and sure I recognice the value of pvp as as something that presents value/meaning. But where is the fun and thrill and honor in killing enexpecting and unprepared travelers? ----------------------------------------- For the liberation and safety of the Matari people!

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